Wherever one goes, all over the world, one observes that the superficial cultures don't penetrate very deeply into human consciousness. But the great clouds of sorrow - I don't like to use the word "evil" - that destructive violence, the antagonisms and conflicts seem to be deeply rooted in all of us. Can one be utterly free of this? If that is essential, then how is one to set about it? Superficially we may be highly cultured, polite, slightly indifferent, but deep down I think most of us are unaware that there is a great inheritance of this vast, complex conflict, misery and fear. If one is at all conscious of it one asks: is it possible to be entirely free of it, so that the mind is a totally different kind of instrument? I do not know if you have thought about this at all - or perhaps it seems that the superficial conditioning is so important that one is always struggling against it. If one has been through that and has put it away then there are all these deep layers which are for the most part unconscious. How is one to become aware of those? Is it at all possible to be completely rid of them?
Perhaps we could discuss how to be aware of these terrible things which man has inherited or cultivated. Whatever the explanations be, the fact is that we are deeply violent, that we are caught in sorrow. There is this cloud of fear and obviously this brings about a great deal of mischief and confusion in action. I think that is fairly obvious. How is one to be aware of all this, and is it possible to go beyond it?
The organized religions throughout the world have laid down certain rules, disciplines, attitudes and beliefs. But have they resolved human suffering and the deep-rooted anxieties, guilts and all the rest of it? So we can put aside all religious beliefs, hopes and fears. One is aware of what is taking place in the world, of the nature of religious oganizations with their heads, gurus and saviours and all their mythology. If one has set aside all that, because one has understood it and seen the futility, the falseness of it and is free of it, then certain facts remain: sorrow, violence, fear and great anxiety.
If I am conscious of all that, how am I to be free of it, so that I have a different kind of brain, a different kind of action, a different attitude towards life, a different way of living? The more intelligent, enquiring and intellectually aware one is of this, the more serious one becomes and there is also the demand that the mind must be totally free of all this mess that human beings have created and carry about with them endlessly. I think that is the basic problem; not that there is not social injustice and poverty, wars, violence, the division between nationalities and so on. All that can be solved, I feel, when human beings really understand this whole problem of existence. Then they can tackle all the confusion and wars from a different dimension.
The human mind wants to find that dimension. It has to find it to solve all this misery. If you are serious, not playing with words, speculating or indulging in theoretical suppositions, ideas and hypotheses, but are actually confronted not only with your own, but with this human suffering, how are you to end all this? The demand for constant security is much more a demand for psychological security, which is much deeper than physiological security; because we want psychological security, to give over all our thoughts and hope to some teacher, to some saviour, to some belief. How shall I, knowing all this, understand and be free of this constant effort, struggle and misery ?
How are we to be aware of all that? What does this awareness or perception mean? How do I know that I am in sorrow? - not only I, but every human being in the world, of which I am part; how do I know that there is this sorrow? Is it a verbal recognition or is it an acceptance of an idea that there is sorrow of which I am part? Or is there a conscious awareness that sorrow is a fact? When I say to myself: there is tremendous sorrow in the world, of which I am part - as I am the world and the world is me - that is a fact. It is not an idea, not a sentiment, not an emotional assertion; it is an absolute fact that I am the world and the world is me. Because we have made this world we are responsible for it. All my thoughts, my activities, my fears, my hopes, are the hopes and fears of the world. There is no division between the world and me. The community is me, the culture is me and I am that culture; so there is no division. I don't know if you see and feel that?
Knowing that I am the world and that there must be a radical revolution in the world - not through bombs, that leads nowhere - I realize there must be a revolution in the very psyche and in the mind itself. So that one lives differently, thinks differently, acts in a totally different manner altogether. How am I to free the mind that is responsible for all this? - the mind being thought. It is thought that has brought about the division between people, the wars, the structure of religious belief. And thought has also put together the technology that makes for the convenience of everyday existence: electricity, the railway, the technological knowledge that enables one to go to the moon; it is thought that has done all this. This thought which has gathered so much information, so much knowledge, how is it to be free from the whole structure and nature of sorrow and fear? - and yet function efficiently, with sanity, in the field of knowledge without bringing about division and antagonism between man and man. You see the problem? How then is thought to prevent this division? Because where there is division there is conflict, not only outwardly but inwardly. Am I making the problem clear? - it's your problem, it's the problem of human being. One sees what thought has done, being cunning, extraordinarily capable, it has gathered technological knowledge which cannot possibly be put aside; thought must be exercised to function at all. And yet thought has brought about violence, and thought is not love. So one has to have the clarity of thought in function, and yet be aware that thought does breed all the misery in the world. How can we be aware of the whole implication of thought - which is the measurable - and also of a dimension in which thought as the measurable does not exist at all? First, is it clear what thought has done in the world, both beneficial and destructive? How is thought to function efficiently, healthily and not create division between people?
The collective memory of man responds as thought - which is the past. It may project into the future, but it still has its roots in the past and from there it functions. We see that in operation and we say that is necessary. But why does thought divide people? Why should I be conditioned as a Muslim - which is the result of thought - and you be conditioned as a Communist, also as a result of thought? Some people think that only violence can produce a sociological change, and others say: that is not the way. So thought is always creating divisions and where there is division there is conflict. So what is the function of thought?
Knowing that thought can only function in the field of knowledge, can thought invent or come upon a different dimension in which there is no division created by thought? Personally, I am very interested in this, because I have seen all over the world that thought has created such marvellous things and yet has brought about such misery, such confusion, such an enormous amount of sorrow. Can thought completely operate in one direction and be totally silent in another, so that it does not create a division? After having put that question to myself - and I hope you are putting it to yourself - is it possible for thought to say, "I won't go beyond the technological world, knowledge and daily existence", and not enter into that dimension in which there is no division? Is it possible for thought to separate itself like that or are we putting the wrong question altogether? Can thought see its own limitations and bring about a different intelligence? If thought sees its own limitation, is there not a different kind of intelligence in operation? Then is there not an awakening of intelligence which is above and beyond thought?
Questioner: When thought is seeing itself, that must not be thinking.
Krishnamurti: I don t know, Sir.
Questioner: Hasn't thought come up with systems to destroy itself?
Krishnamurti: First see our difficulty, don't let's find an easy answer, see the enormous implications in this. Man has lived by thought. We exercise thought every day, every minute. We must have thought; without it there is no action, you can't live. You can't destroy thought. To destroy thought implies a thought which is superior and says "I must destroy my lower thought" - it is all within the field of thought. This is what the Indians have done. They have said: thought is very limited, there is a superior thought, the Atman, the Brahman, the thing above; keep thought silent and then the other will operate. The very assertion of that is thought, isn't it? Here you say "The soul" - it is still part of thought. So thought has produced this extraordinary world of technology, which thought uses for the convenience of human beings and for their destruction. It is thought that has invented the saviours, the myths, the gods; it is thought that has produced violence, that becomes jealous, anxious, fearful.
So is there a field which is not measurable by thought? Can that field operate within the field of thought, without thought breaking up into fragmentations? If thought is operating all the time, then the mind is functioning with the knowledge which is the past. Knowledge is the past - I can't have knowledge of tomorrow, and knowledge is thought. If the only way to live is always within the field of thought, then the mind can never be free and man must always live in sorrow, in fear, in division, therefore in conflict. Realizing that, man has said there must be an outside agency - as God - who will help me to overcome all this fragmentation of thought. But that God, that Atman - or other forms of hope - is still the invention of thought not finding security in this world, which invents or believes or projects an idea which it calls God, which is secure. I see this. If thought is to be the only field in which human beings can live, then they are doomed. This is not my invention, this is what is actually going on.
Have I made the problem clear? The human mind demands freedom from guilt, suffering, confusion, of these endless wars and violence, and thought cannot produce freedom. It can invent the idea of freedom, but that is not freedom. So the human mind must find the answer. It can only do that when it has understood the nature of thinking and has seen its capacity and has found a state of the immeasurable in which thought does not function at all. This is what is called meditation. People have done this; but again, their meditation is part of the furthering of thought. They say "I must sit quietly, my thoughts must be controlled." Knowing the limitation of thought, they say "I must discipline it", "I must hold it in check, not let it wander". They discipline themselves tremendously, but they have not got that other dimension, because thought cannot enter into that.
The really serious people have enquired deeply into this. And yet, thought has been their major instrument and therefore they have never solved this problem. They have invented things, they have speculated. And poor fools like us accept these speculations, the philosophies, the teachers, the whole gamut of it. Obviously there must be a different kind of meditation, a different kind of perception, that is seeing and not evaluating. To see the operations of thought, all its inward and outward movement without giving it any direction or forcing it in any way, just to observe it completely without any choice, that is a different kind of perception. We see, but we always give it a direction. We say "This must not be", "This should be", "I shall overcome it". All that is the old way of responding to any action, feeling or idea. But to observe without any direction, without any pressure, without any distortion - is that possible at all? If I can see myself as I am without any condemnation or saying "I'll keep this and I'll reject that", then perception has a different quality. Then it becomes a living thing, not the repetitive pattern of the past. So in the very act of listening, as you are doing now, you see the truth that to really perceive there must be no directive or persuasion or compulsion. In that observation, you will see that thought does not enter at all. Which means, in that perception, in that seeing, there is complete attention. Where there is no attention there is a distortion. Now w.hen you are listening to this, if you see the truth of it, that acts.
Questioner: Sir, in that state one sees oneself absolutely powerless and also amoral, and thought always feels and knows its own power. Thought always enters where there is interest, fear and anxiety.
Krishnamurti: Sir, isn't fear and anxiety the result of thought? - thought has produced fear!
Questioner: Sometimes it comes unexpectedly.
Krishnamurti: That may be, but whether it is unexpected or not, it's thought that has produced fear - no? Thought has produced this immense sorrow.
Questioner: What about children's fears?
Krishnamurti: Surely, isn't that based on their lack of security? Children need complete security and the parents cannot give it because they are interested in their own little selves. They are quarrelling, they are ambitious, so they cannot give the security the child demands - which is love.
So we come back to the same question. Thought has produced fear, there is no question about it. Thought has produced the aching loneliness in oneself, thought has said "I must fulfil, I must be, I am little, I must be big". Thought has brought about jealousy, anxiety, guilt. Thought is that guilt. Not: thought makes for guilt, thought is guilt. How can I observe myself and the world, of which I am part, without any interference of thought in that observation, so that out of the observation a different action can come which does not produce fear, regrets and all the rest of it. So I must learn to observe myself and the world and my actions quite differently. There must be a learning of observation in which thought does not interfere at all because the moment thought interferes it leads to distortion, it becomes biased. Perception is m the present; you can't perceive tomorrow. You perceive now, and when thought interferes in that perception - thought being the response of the past - it must distort the present; this is logical.
Questioner: Surely, to be aware we have to think.
Krishnamurti: Wait, look at it. What does awareness mean? I am aware that you are sitting there and that I am sitting up here, I am aware that I am sitting on a chair etc. Then thought says "I am a better person than somebody who is sitting below, because I am talking". Thought gives me prestige - do you follow? Is that awareness, or is it merely the continuous movement of thought? Can you see a tree without the operation of thought, without the image of the tree? - the image being thought that says: that is an oak.
In observing a tree what takes place? There is the space between the observer and the tree, there is distance; then there is the botanical knowledge, the like or dislike of that tree. I have an image of a tree and that image looks at that tree; is there a perception without the image? The image is thought; thought is the knowledge of that tree. When there is perception with an image, there is no direct perception of the tree. Is itpossible to look at the tree without the image? That is fairly simple, but it becomes much more complex when I look at myself without any image about myself. Can there be an observation of myself without any image? I am full of my images. I am this, I am not that, I should be this, I should not be that, I must become, I must not become - do you follow? Those are all images and I am looking at myself with one of the images - not with the whole group of images.
So what is looking? If there is no image then what is seeing? If I have no images at all about myself - which one has to go into very deeply - then what is there to see? There is absolutely nothing to see, and one is frightened of that. That is: one is absolutely nothing. But we can't face that, therefore we have those images about ourselves.
The human mind demands freedom. Freedom is essential, it is even demanded politically, but you don't demand freedom from all images. Thought has created these images for various sociological, economic and cultural resows. These images are measurable: the greater, the lesser. One asks: can thought observe without distortion? Obviously it can't. There is a distorting factor in thought, because thought is the response of the past. Is there an observation without the interference of thought? - that means without the interference of any image. You can find this out; it's not a question of just accepting or believing. You can look at your wife or your husband, the tree, the cloud, or the person sitting next to you, without any image.
Questioner: Is there such a thing as an unconscious image one might not be aware of?
Krishnamurti: Yes, there is, of course. Please listen to my question: how am I to be aware of the many unconscious images that I have stored up?
Questioner: Krishnaji, as long as one is trying to be aware, one creates things to be aware of.
Krishnamurti: That is what I am saying. You cannot try to be aware, you cannot determine to be aware; to be aware is not the result of exercising will. Either you see or you don't see, either you listen to what we are talking about now, or you don't listen. But if you listen with your image, then of course you don't listen at all.
The question is really very interesting. I can understand the conscious images, the superficial knowledge that I have, that is fairly simple and clear. But how am I to be aware of the deep, hidden images which have such a powerful influence on the whole way of life?
Questioner: We find out by how we behave, by how these images come up, sometimes in sleep.
Krishnamurti: Which means: through my behaviour I begin to discover the unconscious images that have been stored up - one image after the other, you follow? I behave towards you differently than towards another, because you are more powerful, you have greater prestige than the other man. Therefore my image of you is greater and I despise the other; so it means going through one image after another. Is there a central fact that creates these images consciously as well as deeply? If I can find that out, then I don't have to go through image after image, or discover the images through dreams.
Through my behaviour I discover my unconscious images; that's a form of analysis, isn't it? Will analysis resolve these images? These images are created by thought, and analysis is thought. Through thought I hope to destroy the images that thought has created, so I am caught in a vicious circle. How do I deal with this? Are your images revealed through dreams? Isn't that another form of analysis? Why should you dream at all? Dreams are a continuation of my daily activity, aren't they? I lead rather a confused life - uncertain, miserable, lonely, frightened, comparing myself with somebody else who is more beautiful, more intelligent; that is my life during the waking hours and when I sleep, all that goes on. I dream of all the things I have been through; it is the continuation of how I have been living during the daytime. If there is a revelation of myself through dreams, that is a form of analysis. Therefore I am depending on dreams to reveal the hidden images, and the dependence on dreams makes me less and less awake during the waking hours - no?
Questioner: Thought and sub-thought create images and these are useful on a certain level.
Krishnamurti: We have said that, there are useful images which must function, which we must have, there are highly dangerous images which one must totally abolish - obviously. That is what this whole discussion is about.
Questioner: Is there not only one question? - not whether thought can be silent when necessary but: can there be only silence?
Krishnamurti: That means, Sir: can there be silence from which thought can operate, doesn't it?
Questioner: It is not a question whether thought can operate or not, but can there be only silence? Krishnamurti: Can thought be completely silent? Who is putting that question? Is thought putting that question?
Questioner: Obviously.
Krishnamurti: So thought is asking itself whether it can be quiet.
How will it find out? Can it do anything to be silent? It can't, can it? Can thought say to itself: I must be quiet? That is not being quiet! Then what is silence which is not the product of thought? Is there a silence which is not the result of thought? Which means, can thought come to an end by itself, without asking to come to an end? Isn't that what is implied when you listen to something, when you see clearly? When you are completely attentive, in that attention there is silence, isn't there? Complete attention means your body, your nerves, everything is attentive. Then in that attention the observer as thought does not exist.
Questioner: That only happens in moments of great danger.
Krishnamurti: You mean to say when there is a crisis. Must one live in crises all the time? What an appalling idea, isn't it? In order to be quiet I must have a series of crises and thereby hope to be silent. That's too complicated!
Questioner: May I say that silence happens from within.
Krishnamurti: How does it happen? Can one function from silence - you follow? Please put that question: first of all, what is silence? How does it come? Is there a functioning, that is living a daily life out of silence? I can't assert that there is an awareness all the time, I don't know, you don't know.
Questioner: But it seems to be there, it just changes all the time.
Krishnamurti: We only know one thing: that thought is perpetually in operation. And when thought is in operation there is no silence, there is no awareness, as we pointed out. Awareness, or perception, implies a state of seeing in which there is no image whatsoever. Until I find out that it is possible to see without any image, I can't state anything else. I can't state that there is an awareness, there is a silence. Is it possible for me, in daily life, to observe my wife, my child, everything around me, without a shadow of an image? Find out. Then out of that attention there is silence. That attention is silence. And it is not the result of practice, which is again thought.
Receive Krishnamurti's thoughts daily, in your
mailbox Subscribe to Krishnamurti's Daily Thoughts
Please bookmark to Stumble 
Read the Daily thought of Denis Jones
or, Eileen Caddy's thought for today