Questioner: May we pursue what we talked about last time we met here, with regard to concepts? Can we live without concepts, beliefs?
Krishnamurti: Do you not think that before we can go into that or any other question it is important to question, to question critically, not only someone else, but, what is much more important, to be critically self-aware. It seems to me much more important to question one's own motives, one's attitudes, beliefs, ways of life, habits, traditions, the way one thinks and why one thinks in that way. Because I do not see how we can have sanity if we are not aware of our own reasoning or non-reasoning, if we are not aware of our own emotional attitudes and our narrow or wide beliefs. I do not see how we can bring about any kind of sanity in our lives (sanity being a way of living which is fairly healthy) unless we are critically aware of what we are talking about, and therefore questioning everything, not accepting a thing about ourselves or others. I think if we could start from that - which does not mean that we must be sceptical about everything as this would be another form of insanity. But if we can question, then I think what we shall discover, talking it over together this morning, will have some value.
Questioner: Can we continue with what you have just said? Questioner: Will you take up the subject of space and time?
Questioner: Will you explain about the doctor who took L.S.D. and destroyed a space within himself, in terms of the observer and the observed?
Questioner: Could we discuss envy, and its activities?
Krishnamurti: Sir, if I may ask you a question - What is your deep, fundamental, lasting interest in life?
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: Is that your deep fundamental interest, Sir? Rather feeble isn't it? If you skipped all these double, indirect, oblique questions which are beside the point and if you dealt with one question directly and honestly, would you know what is your fundamental, lasting, total interest?
Questioner: To be free.
Questioner: We want to be happy.
Questioner: I am really interested in myself...
Krishnamurti: ...as most of us are, interested in my progress, interested in my job, interested in my little family, getting a better position, more prestige, more power, dominating others, and so on and so on. I think it would be logical, would it not, to admit to yourselves that that is what most of us are interested in - me first, and everyone else second.
Questioner: And that is very wrong.
Krishnamurti: I do not think it is wrong. What is there wrong about it? You see, Sir, that is what we are doing all the time. Now let us take that fact. Most of us are interested, in the little corner in which we live, not only outwardly but inwardly. We are interested in it, but we never decently, honestly, admit that to ourselves. If we do, we are rather ashamed of it and so we add such comments as: "I do not think it is right", "It is wrong", "It does not help mankind", and all that blaa. So there it is. One is interested in oneself fundamentally and one thinks it is wrong (for various reasons, ideologically, traditionally, and so on). The actual daily fact is that one is interested in oneself, and you think it is wrong. But what you think is irrelevant, it has no validity at all. Why introduce that factor? Why say "It is wrong"? That is an idea, is it not? - it is a concept. What is is the fact, which is that one is interested in oneself.
Questioner: I don't know if it's all right to ask a question.
Krishnamurti: Quite right. Go ahead, Sir.
Questioner: When I do something for others I feel more satisfied. I see that to be so self-concerned is not satisfactory, but to work in a school or to help another is more satisfactory than to think about oneself, which is not quite so satisfying.
Krishnamurti: What is the difference? You want satisfaction - which is self-concern. Follow this out, Sir, for yourself. If you are seeking satisfaction in helping others and therefore that gives greater satisfaction, you are still concerned about yourself, about what will give you greater satisfaction. Why bring any ideological concept into it? One wants freedom because it is much more satisfying and to live a petty little life is not so satisfactory. So why have this double thinking? Why say one is satisfactory and the other is not. You understand, Sir? Why not say - I really want satisfaction, whether it is in sex, in freedom, or helping others, in becoming a great saint, or politician, or engineer, or lawyer. It is all the same process, is it not? Satisfaction in many ways, both subtle and obvious, that is what we want. Right? When we say we want freedom we want it because we think perhaps it may be terribly satisfying; and the ultimate satisfaction, of course, is this peculiar idea of self-realization.
Questioner: So we must get rid of this search for satisfaction.
Krishnamurti: Ah, no Sir. Wait Sir. To get rid of satisfaction is not freedom. Freedom is something entirely different; not something to be had from something. If I get rid of or free myself from satisfaction, I am freeing myself from it because I seek a much greater satisfaction. No? So why not find out why we want satisfaction? Not that "we should not", that is only a concept, a formula, and hence there is contradiction, and therefore conflict. So let us take this one thing. Most of us want, desire, search for, crave for satisfaction. Right? Questioner: I don't think so.
Krishnamurti: You don't think so. Why not, Sir?
Questioner: I am not interested specially in satisfaction, but I would like to know why I am dissatisfied.
Krishnamurti: (Oh! my lord!) How do you know that you are dissatisfied. Because you have known satisfaction! (Laughter) Don't laugh Sirs, for goodness sake, don't laugh. This is not a clever weaving of argument, please. Why am I dissatisfied? Because I am married and that does not give me satisfaction; because I go to the temple and that does not give me satisfaction; (follow all this). I go to meetings and that means nothing; I look at trees and feel nothing; and so gradually I am dissatisfied with everything I see, or have or have felt. Which means, what? I am seeking a satisfaction in which there is no dissatisfaction at all! No? This is not a clever statement; it is obvious, isn't it? No, Sir? Look, each one of us is seeking satisfaction although he is dissatisfied. Right? Now, why do we seek satisfaction? - Not that it is right or it is wrong, but what is the mechanism of this search? (Long pause.) Do you expect me to analyse it for you?
Questioner: In some spheres we have to seek satisfaction to live.
Krishnamurti: Yes Sir, of course there are basic necessities; but wait, Sir, before we come to that, can we find out why we seek satisfaction? Go into it, Sir. What is satisfaction?
Questioner: I think we need some of that awareness of which you speak in order to distinguish for ourselves what will give us permanent happiness.
Krishnamurti: Don't just use words, but think it out a little bit, just think it out. I do not know anything about awareness - out it goes, if I may suggest it. We are not discussing that, Sir, nor are we talking about the permanent or the impermanent. We want to find out why we human beings are always seeking satisfaction.
Questioner: ( The audience suggested many reasons but they were almost inaudible.) We seek satisfaction because we want to change. Krishnamurti: Wait a minute, Sirs, just a minute, Sir. Food satisfies you, doesn't it - having a good meal? Why? Because I'm hungry, and it is good to get rid of the empty feeling. Move a little higher, up to sex. Very satisfying, apparently. You are all silent! Then, having a position in which you can dominate others, that is also very satisfying, isn't it? You feel powerful, you feel you are in a position to order others to do things, and so that is very satisfactory. One seeks different ways of finding gratification - through food, sex, position, through various virtues, and so on. Why? One can understand when you want food that you feel gratified when you eat it, but why move to another level for satisfaction; and is there such a thing? I feel satisfied with food, I want varieties of food, and, if I have the money and appetite for it I get it. I also want a good position in society, a respected position, which is very gratifying because there I am secure, with a big house, a policeman at the gate, and all the rest of it. After that, I want some more of it - a bigger house and two more policemen, and so on. Now, what is this craving for gratification? You understand, Sirs, the craving, what is it? I have a craving for food and I eat it - if I can get it. But the craving for position - let us take that one thing. Most of us want position - as the best engineer, or the best lawyer, or the President of some society, or this or that. Why? Apart from the money it gives, apart from the comfort, why this craving?
Questioner: I want to show to others what I can do.
Krishnamurti: Which is, to make the neighbours feel envious!
Questioner: (Several interjections. Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: (Is that it? Wait Sir - you have not heard that other gentleman, Sir.) If you had not your position you would be nobody. Strip the Pope of his robes, or the Sannyasi of his tamasha and he would be nobody. Is that it? So are we afraid of being nobody, and that is why we want position? To be considered a great scholar, a philosopher, a teacher? If you find yourself in that position it is very gratifying - to have your name printed in the newspaper, and people coming to you and all the rest of it. Is that why we do all this? That is, inwardly we are just ordinary people with aching sorrows, conflict, fighting in the family, bitterness, anxiety and fear which is there constantly. And to have an outward position where I am regarded as a terribly respectable citizen, that is very satisfactory. Right? Why do I want this outward position, I ask, and you say "I want it because in my daily life I am just a sorry little human being." Right? Is that it? (Long pause).
Questions: (Several inaudible suggestions.)
Krishnamurti: What is actually taking place? We have come to a certain point, Sir, let us pursue it; this point is that one finds that one wants a position which will be gratifying because inwardly one is... just a shoddy little man. But to have a policeman at the gate gives me tremendous importance. Right? This is obvious, isn't it? We don't have to go into all that, do we?
Questioner: We have to expose ourselves, Sir.
Krishnamurti: I am exposing you now! You may not want to be exposed but that is the fact! - I am a sorry little entity inside, with all sorts of dogmas, beliefs in God, rituals and all that - a whirlpool of mischief and misery inwardly, and outwardly I want the policeman at the gate! Now why do I have this craving for outward position? You understand? Why?
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: No Sir. Please go into it. Why do we want? What is the reason? Don't reduce it to the word "selfishness", Sir.
Questioner: (Long inaudible contribution.)
Krishnamurti: Sir, Sir. Look, Sir! Don't you have a craving fur position, fur power, fur prestige, to be recognised as a great man, have fame, notoriety, and so on? Have you not got this desire?
Questioner: (Inaudible remark.)
Krishnamurti: You see how you are escaping from this! Have you not got this desire, Sir?
Questioner: Yes. Krishnamurti: At last! Now why? Go into it, Sir. Why? Why do you crave fur a position? Don't say it is due to circumstances, that I have been put in that position by society, that I have been conditioned that way.
Questioner: I desire position in the same way as when I am hungry I want food.
Krishnamurti: Oh no, Sir! Oh no! You see we can't face this thing at all!
Questioner: Further suggestions. (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: Do let us be serious. Throwing in all these words is so silly. You are not really thinking at all. Sir, here is a very simple question. Everybody throughout the world wants a position - whether in society, in the family, or to sit next to God, "on the right-hand of the Father". Everybody wants a position. There is a craving fur it. Why?
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: No Sir! Don't throw out words. Analyse it, Sir, don't just answer! Why do you want it?
Questioner: It is natural.
Krishnamurti: It is natural? Oh Sir! You say one thing and then go on to another. Have you ever noticed animals, Sir? You've got a chicken yard; have you ever noticed that there is always one chicken pecking another? There is an order of pecking. So we have perhaps inherited this thing - to dominate, to be aggressive, to seek a position is a form of aggression. No? Of course it is. I mean the saint who seeks a position with regard to his saintliness is as aggressive as the chicken pecking in the yard! I don't know if you follow all this. You don't. Perhaps we have inherited this aggressive urge to dominate, that is, to have a position. Right? And what does this involve, this aggression, to have a position in society (a position which must be recognised by others, otherwise it is no position at all)? I must always sit on the platform. Why? (Pause) Do please go on with it, Sirs. I am doing all the work. Why do you have this aggression? (Audience suggests something.) No Sir. It is not a question of something lacking. Oh, how are we going to discuss with a group of people who never want to go into anything.
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: That is one of the reasons, Sir. But, let us look at this, Sir. There is aggression. Right? When I want a position in society, which is recognised by society, it is a form of aggression. Now, why am I aggressive?
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: You see, you do not apply it to yourself. You do not find out, in yourself, why you are aggressive. Forget the "position in society" we have analysed that now. Why are we aggressive?
Questioner: To reach what we want, what we aim at.
Krishnamurti: And what do you aim at? (We have said that, Sir. We have moved away from that.) The question now is, why are we aggressive? Please go into it, Sir. The politician is aggressive, the big shots are aggressive, whether in business or in religion they are aggressive - why?
Questioner: Aggressiveness arises from fear.
Krishnamurti: Is that so? Maybe! Find out for yourself, Sir. You are aggressive in the family. Why? In the office, in the bus, and so on. Why are you aggressive? Don't explain it, Sir. Just find out why you are.
Questioner: Why am I afraid to be nothing?
Krishnamurti: Look! As the gentleman said just now, fear may be the cause of this aggression because society is so constructed that a citizen who has a position of respect is treated with great courtesy, whereas a man who has no position at all is kicked around - sent into the army and to Vietnam, to be killed. So why are we aggressive? Is it because we are frightened of being nobodies? Don't answer it, Sirs, go into it! Go into it in yourselves! Or, we are frightened because it has become a habit. Seeking a position has become a habit. We are not really frightened, but it has become a habit. I don't know if you are following this. If it is fear that makes us aggressive, that is one thing. But it may be the momentum of society that is making you aggressive. You know Sirs, they have made an experiment, putting rats, thousands of rats, in a very small room. And when they are there they lose all sense of proportion. The mother who is about to have babies, the mother rat, does not care, because the pressure of space, absence of space, the fact of so many rats living together makes them crazy. Follow this. In the same way, if people live in a very, very crowded city and have no space, it makes them also very aggressive, makes them violent. Animals do need space to hunt in; they have territorial rights, like the birds. They establish their territory and they will hunt any other animal that comes into that territory. So they have territorial rights, and sexual rights - all animals have this. And sexual rights do not have such a great importance as territorial rights. Right? Of course some of you may know all about this. So we may be aggressive because we have not enough space around us physically. Are you following all this? And this may be one of the reasons why we are aggressive. A family living in a small room, or a small house with ten of you in it, you explode, get angry about nothing. So man must have space, and because he has not enough physical space, that may be one of the reasons for aggression. And also one may be aggressive because one is frightened. Now to which category do you belong? Are you aggressive because you are frightened?
Questioner: (Suggestion inaudible.)
Krishnamurti: So, you are saying, guarantee my physical security and then I will not be aggressive. But is there such a thing as guaranteed security in life? And so that may be the basic reason why we are frightened - knowing that there is no such lasting security. In Vietnam there is no security. You may have a little security here but where there is war there is no security and, when an earthquake comes, it destroys everything - and so on. So, go into this yourselves, Sirs, and find out whether your aggression is born of fear, or of the fact that you are enclosed tightly, both outwardly and inwardly. Inwardly you have no freedom - intellectually you are not free, you repeat what others have said. Technological inventions, society, the community, all that is felt constantly as a pressure on you which you are not capable of meeting and therefore you explode, you feel frustrated. Now, which is it - to which category do you belong? Find out, Sirs. (Long pause.) If you are frightened, and therefore you are aggressive, how are you going to deal with fear? And if you are free of fear will you lose the pleasure of being aggressive? And knowing that you will lose the pleasure of being aggressive, you do not mind being afraid. Right? Do you follow this? (Pause.) Fear is unpleasant and aggressiveness is more pleasant. Right? And so I do not mind being a little bit afraid because aggressiveness with its pleasure balances fear.
Questioner: I am aware of the difficulties of the situation.
Krishnamurti: Ah, I don't know what you are aware of, Sir. Go into it. I am just asking you. So you may prefer to be aggressive, but at the same time be afraid. So you really don't mind being afraid or being aggressive.
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: Sirs, this is a Very difficult question because each one will interpret aggressiveness in his own way. But if we could face this question of fear and see if we can understand fear and see whether there is a possibility of being free from fear, then when that is gone through, then would there be aggressiveness - your kind, my kind, his kind or her kind? You follow Sir? So let us take that one thing. Is fear causing aggressiveness? Obviously it is. I am afraid of not having any belief and therefore I am aggressive about the belief I have. So fear has produced aggressiveness with regard to belief! That is simple. Right? (Are you all having an early-morning sleep, or what!) So, is it possible to be free of fear? (At last!) One only puts that question when one really wants to be free of fear. Is it possible to live without fear? It is a very complex problem. It is not a matter of saying, "Yes, we must live without fear" and make a lot of platitudes about it. But can one live without fear? What does it mean? Physically, what does it mean? We will go step by step. What does it mean physically to live without fear? Is it possible, in this society as it is constructed, in a culture of this kind, whether the culture is Communist or the present culture, or an ancient culture, is it possible to live in a society without fear?
Questioner: It is not possible.
Krishnamurti: Why? Most extraordinary, Sirs! When one comes to basic questions you are all very silent.
Questioner: I'm only thinking of what would happen to my life.
Krishnamurti: Are you afraid that if you had lasting security in a stable society, you would have no fear. (Inaudible) (Yes Sir. That is understood, Sir.) So, you will not be afraid if you can have a guarantee that the life, the daily existence you are used to will not be disturbed from the pattern you are used to. Right? And on that basis we build a society. Obviously. That is what the Communists have done. So you say it is not possible to live in a society without fear. Is that so? No?
Questioner: I think it must be possible but I don't know how to do it.
Krishnamurti: Ah! If you think it must be possible, that is only a concept. The fact is that one is afraid to live in a society as it is, without fear. Right?
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: (We are doing that, Sir. That is what we are discussing, Sir.) One of our fears is that to live in a society one has to be aggressive. Let us for the moment accept that - that to live in a society of any kind, Communist, Capitalist, or Hindu or Moslem you have to be aggressive and therefore frightened in order to survive at all. Leave it there. Now at what other level of our existence are we afraid? I can understand that I am afraid that I may not have enough food for tomorrow and therefore I lay up stores for a month or for two days and I am going to guard it and to see that nobody steals it. And I'm afraid that the Government will come along and do something or other, and so I am afraid. I can understand that. Now are we only aggressive there, at that level. Are we only afraid at that level?
Questioner: Inwardly we are also the same. Krishnamurti: What do we mean by "inwardly"? What does that mean Sir?
Questioner: (Inaudible. Several comments.)
Krishnamurti: So there is fear at another level. It is suggested that there is fear in relationship, and therefore we are aggressive in relationship. Now why are we afraid in relationship? (I don't know what "truthful" means, Sir.) Why are we afraid in relationship? Are you afraid of your wife, or your husband, or your neighbour, or your boss? I know it's a rather awful thing to admit that you are afraid of your wife! One is afraid in every kind of relationship. Why?
Questioner: (inaudible)
Krishnamurti: Why am I afraid? Please do be simple about it because it becomes very complex presently and if we are
not simple at the beginning we shall not understand anything. Why am I afraid of my wife or my neighbour, or my boss (which is relationship) - why?
Questioner: (Several comments, inaudible.)
Krishnamurti: My dear chap you're not married! So leave it for the moment. Your calamity will come presently!
Questioner: There is fear in relationship because "he" or "she" or "my boss" can withhold something from me. (Further comment inaudible.)
Krishnamurti: How are you going to discuss this when you won't go step by step! Don't jump, don't conclude. Are you afraid of your neighbour, of your boss? Fear - you know. He might take away your job. He might not give you a rise, he might not encourage you. And also you are maybe afraid of your wife because she dominates, she nags, she bullies, she is not pretty. So one is afraid. Why? Because one yearns for continuity. Let us go slower than that. I am sorry to insist on going very slowly, step by step. I am afraid of my wife, why? I am afraid because - it is very simple - she bullies me and I don't like to be bullied. I am fairly sensitive and she is aggressive, and I'm tied to her through ceremony, through marriage, through children. And so I am frightened. She dominates me and I don't like it. Right Sirs? I am frightened for that reason, because I am fairly sensitive and I like to do things differently. I like to look at trees, I like to play with the children, I like to go to the office late, or do this or that, and she bullies me, and I don't like to be bullied. So I have the beginning of fear of her. Right? And also, if I retaliate and say "Don't bully me" she will withhold her sexual pleasure, my pleasure with her. So I am frightened of that. Right Sirs? Still you are all very silent about this! You are an extraordinary generation! I am frightened because she wants to pick a quarrel with me, and so on. So what shall I do? I am frightened and I am supposed to be related to her. She dominates me, she bullies me, and she orders me about, she has contempt for me. And, if I am a strong man, I have contempt for her. You know! So what shall I do? I am frightened. Do I acknowledge that fact, or do I cover it up and say "It's my karma", "It's my conditioning", you know - you complain against society and your environment.
Questioner: I suppose one has to suffer in silence.
Krishnamurti: Suffer in silence! You do that anyhow.
Questioner: Divorce her!
Krishnamurti: Divorce is rather expensive and takes too long, so what will you do?
Questioner: Put up with it.
Krishnamurti: Now what takes place? Follow it, Sirs. What takes place? You are frightened and you put up with it. So what is happening to you? You are frightened and you get used to this fear. You get used to the bullying, used to the environment, so gradually you become duller and duller. Gradually you lose all sensitivity. You don't look at trees which you looked at before, you never smile. So gradually you become dull. That is exactly what has happened with you gentlemen and ladies. Because you have got used to it. You have got used to this rotten society, to the filthy streets. You look neither at the filthy streets nor at the lovely sky of an evening. So, fear (your not having understood it) reduces you to dullness. What will you do, Sirs! Don't just say "Yes, you're perfectly right". The doctor has diagnosed your disease and he asks what you are going to do? You have got used to the Upanishads, the Gita, the dirt, the squalor, the bullying of the wife, the bullying of the politicians, you have become totally insensitive, dull. You may cleverly give lectures, and read and quote and all that, but inwardly you are dull. So what will you do? (Pause) No answer?
Questioner: Get rid of it all.
Krishnamurti: How? With a lovely gesture?
Questioner: Get rid of the relationship.
Krishnamurti: Walk out on her, and on the children? And fall into another trap? So what will you do, Sir?
Questioner: Find out why she bullies me.
Krishnamurti: She won t tell me. She has her own miseries. She has God knows what problems. She is unsatisfied, perhaps, sexually. Perhaps she is ill - Oh, a dozen things there may be. You know, she feels she must have a rest, have a holiday, have some time without her husband, away from him, take a holiday. So I can't find out from her why she bullies me. I have to deal with myself, first. Gosh. You people are so... So, what shall I do?
Questioner: Resist her.
Krishnamurti: I can't do that.
Questioner: Try to reconcile.
Krishnamurti: Oh my God! She keeps to her character and I keep to mine. So what shall I do?
Questioner: You become indifferent.
Krishnamurti: That is what you have already done. You are completely indifferent to everything - to the trees, to the beauty, to the rain, to the clouds, to the dirt, to the wife, to the children. You are completely indifferent.
Questioner: Maybe we have to doubt everything that we have accepted up to now.
Krishnamurti: Look Sir, it's a much more serious problem than just this verbal exchange. Because you have become indifferent, callous - through fear, through bullying by the Gods, the Upanishads, the Gita, by the politician, by the wife. You have become dull, haven't you? So how do you awaken to this dullness and throw it out? You understand my question? I have been made dull by my wife, by the repetitions of the blasted sacred books, by the society in which I live, I have become completely indifferent. I don't care what happens to me or what happens to others. I have become callous, hard. I recognise that. That is a fact. You may not recognise it. You may say, "Well I may have little spots here and there which are fairly sensitive". Those little spots have no value at all, when the major field is dull. So, what shall I do? I recognise that as a fact. And the question is not how to get rid of it! I don't condemn it. I say, "That is a fact." So what shall I do? Well, Sirs. What shall I do?
Questioner: I feel helpless.
Krishnamurti: Then you cannot do anything, and then you have the whole state of India as it is! Now I want to do something; I really do. You, your Gods, your religious books, society, the culture in which you have grown up, all these have made me incredibly callous and indifferent. So what shall I do? Well, Sirs. What shall I do?
Questioner: Break with the whole thing.
Krishnamurti: Break? I'm afraid to break, am I not? First of all, am I conscious, am I aware that I am indifferent? Are you, Sirs? (What a generation you are!) (Long pause.) All right, Sirs, I will go through it. I have become callous, and I see the reasons for this in my wife, my family, overpopulation, the enormous weight of ten thousand years of traditions, the endless rituals, the squalor inside the house and outside the house, and so on. I see the reasons why the mind has been made dull, through education and so on. That's a fact. Now what shall I do? First of all, I do not want to live that way. Right? I cannot live that way. It is worse than an animal. (Oh! you are not interested.)
Questioner: Please go on. Krishnamurti: So first I see the cause, and the effect, and I see it is impossible to live that way. Now what makes me say, It is impossible to live that way"? Please follow all this. (Sirs, please don't cough.) This requires great attention. What makes me say, "I must not live that way"? (Long pause.) I am insensitive. If it is painful and I want to change, then I am changing because I think something else will give me greater pleasure. (Oh! you don't see all this!)I want to change because I see that a mind that is so dull is really not existing and there must be change. If I change because it is painful - follow this, please - if I change because it is painful then I am pursuing pleasure. Right? And the pursuit of pleasure has been the cause of this indifference. This indifference has been caused because I have sought pleasure - pleasure in the family, in the Gods, in the Upanishads, Koran, Bible, in the Establishment. And all that has reduced me to this - indifference. The origin of the movement was pleasure, and if I revolt against this it will again be the pursuit of pleasure!
Are you following all this? I have realized something! I have realized that if I change with a motive of pleasure I shall be back in the same circle. Please, Sirs, do understand this - with your hearts, not with your silly little minds. Understand this with your hearts - that when you have started to seek pleasure you must end up in catastrophe, which is dullness. If you break away from that dullness because you want a different kind of pleasure then you are back in the same circle. So I say, "Look what I'm doing!" So I have to be very watchful of pleasure. I'm not going to deny it, because if I deny it I am seeking another, greater pleasure. So I see that pleasure reduces the mind to habits which bring about complete dullness. I hang up that picture on the wall because it has given me great pleasure. I have looked at it in the museum or in the gallery and I say, "What a lovely picture that is!" I buy it, if I have the money, and hang it up in my room. I look at it every day - and say "How nice". Then I get used to it. You understand? So the pleasure of looking at it every day has brought about a habit which now prevents me from looking. I don't know if you see this. Like sex! So habit, getting used to something, is the beginning of indifference. Are you following all this? You get used to the squalor of the next village as you pass it every day. The little boys and the little girls making messes on the road - the dirt, the squalor, the filth. You get used to it, and then you have got used to it. In the same way you have got used to the beauty of a tree, you simply do not see it any more. So, I have discovered that where I pursue pleasure there must be, deeply in it, the root of indifference. Oh! do please see this! There are no roots of heaven in pleasure, there are only roots of indifference and pain.
So what shall I do if I see that very clearly? Pleasure is such an enticing thing! You understand? I look at the tree: it is a great delight. To see a dark cloud full of rain and a rainbow, and this seems a tremendous thing. That is a pleasure, that is a delight, that is a tremendous enjoyment. Why can't I leave it there. You understand? Why do I have to say, "I must store it up"? (I don't know if you are following all this.) Then when I see the next day the dark cloud, full of rain, and the leaves dancing in the wind, the memory of yesterday spoils the sight of it. I have become dull. So what shall I do? I cannot deny pleasure, but this does not mean I indulge in pleasure. So I understand now that pleasure inevitably breeds indifference I see it. I see it as a fact as I see the microphone - not as an idea, not as a theory, not as a concept, but as an actual fact. Right? So now I am watching the operation of pleasure. You follow? The process of pleasure is what I am watching. As, "I like you" and "I do not like someone else", which is again in the same pattern. All my judgments are based on likes and dislikes. I like you because you are respectable. I do not like you because you are not respectable. You are a Muslim, or a Hindu, or you have sexual perversions and I prefer the other perversions - and so on. You follow? Like and dislike. So I watch it. And like and dislike is again a habit, which I have cultivated through pleasure. The mind now is watching the whole movement of pleasure, and you cannot watch it if you condemn it. Are you following this? So what has happened to my mind? Watch it, Sir. What has happened to my mind? (Oh! you just throw out words. You don't know what you are saying.) (That's right, Sir.) It has become much more sensitive. Right? Therefore muchmore intelligent. Now that intelligence is operating - not my intelligence or your intelligence, just intelligence. I do not know if you are following this. Before, there was indifference and I did not care. The mind did not care two pins whether I lived like a pig or not. And I realized I must change. And I see that to change to a greater pleasure is to come back to the same filth. So the mind has realized something, seen something. Not because somebody has spoken of it - but it has seen something very clearly - that where there is the pursuit of pleasure, this must inevitably breed indifference. So the mind has sharpened. And it is watching pleasure in every movement. And you can only watch anything freely, without reservation, condemnation, or judgment. So the mind is watching. And it says "What is wrong with me, why can't I look at a tree, why can't I see the beautiful face of a child or a woman?" I can't shut my eyes - blindly go running away to the Himalayas. It is there. Right? So what shall I do? Not look? Turn my head when I pass a woman? (Which the Sannyasis do, they know all the old tricks and all that.) So what shall I do? So I look. You understand? I look. I look at that tree, the beauty of the branch, the beauty of the curve of the tree. I look at a beautiful face, well proportioned, the smile, the eyes. I look. Follow this. When I look, there is no pleasure. Have you noticed it? Have you got it? Have you understood what we are talking about? When I look, where is there room for pleasure? I don't look with fear, saying "My God! Am I caught in the trap of pleasure!" But I look, whether it is at the tree, the rainbow, the fly, or a beautiful woman, or the man. I look. In that look there is no pleasure. The pleasure only arises when thought comes in.
Now without understanding this whole process - the saints, the ugly, immature human beings called saints, the Rishis, the writers, they have condemned this. Don't look, they say. And so - look. And when you see very clearly there is neither pleasure nor displeasure. It is there. The beauty of the face, the walk, the dress, the beauty of the tree. A second later thought comes in and says, "That was a beautiful woman". And all the imagery, sex, intimations, thrills, begin. Are you following all this, Sirs, and what are you going to do about it? What happens? Thought comes in, and what is important now is not pleasure, because that is understood, there is noth- ing to it. Look what has happened. The mind has become extraordinarily sensitive, and therefore highly disciplined, highly disciplined but not through an imposed discipline. By watching that I am callous, indifferent - watching it, and watching it - the mind has become sensitive. Watching is the discipline. I wonder if you have got this! In this kind of discipline there is no suppression; there is no suppression in the discipline that is necessary in order to see. So the mind has become highly sensitive, highly disciplined, and therefore austere - not the austerity in regard to clothes and food, all that is too immature and childish. And the mind now says it is watching pleasure and it sees that the continuity of pleasure is created by thought. Right? So I have entered into a totally different dimension. You understand? A dimension in which I have to work very hard and which nobody is going to tell me about. I can tell you, but you have to work for yourself. So I say - "Why does thought come into this at all?" I look at that tree, I look at a woman, I see that man going by in a rich car, a nice car, driven by a chauffeur, and I say "All right". But why does thought come in? Why? (Long pause) (Audience makes a suggestion.) No Sir, no Sir. I haven't learnt the art of looking. Do listen to this. I haven't learnt it. When I said "I see indifference, callousness" I had not really seen it. Seeing it - not changing callousness, but just to see it. So now, I am asking myself, "Why does thought come into the picture at all?" Why can't I just look at that tree, or that woman, or that car? Why? Why does thought come into this?
Questioner: Memory comes as a barrier.
Krishnamurti: Ask yourself the question, Sir, and don't just say "Memory comes as a barrier". You have just heard somebody else say that. You heard me say that a dozen times, and you repeat and throw back those words at me. They have no meaning to me any more. I am asking quite a different question. I am asking why thought comes into it at all. (Suggestion from audience.) Ask yourself, Sir, and find out the answer. Why this constant interference of thought? You understand Sir? It is very interesting if you go into it for yourself. At present you cannot look at anything without thought, without an image, without a symbol. Why? (Long pause) Do you want me to answer it? The gentleman sits very comfortably and says "Yes". "Please answer it, will you?" And it's not going to make a pennyworth of difference to him. (That's right, and it has become a habit. For the last fifty years, doing whatever you have done.) If it is a habit, then what shall I do? Do I see the habit as an idea or actually as habit - Do you see the difference? If you do then you must find out.
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