Questioner: The other day you were talking about the observer and the observed, and resolving the conflict between...
Krishnamurti: Is that what you want to discuss? Please Sir, let us all find out what each one of us wants to discuss and then put it all together and see what happens.
Questioner: Why do you say that studying Indian culture and art and Indian philosophies is violence?
Questioner: What are the steps to take to uncondition ourselves? Questioner: The mind produces images, but what is seen by the mind is not true.
Krishnamurti: Is that what we are all concerned about in our daily life? Sirs, are we reducing, this morning, this gathering to a mere intellectual, verbal exchange of ideas?
Questioner: What is meant by clear thinking?
Questioner: What is the "actual"...
Questioner: Do you suggest that violence and non-violence are two extremes?
Questioner: Can we not guide our lives by certain principles?
Krishnamurti: Haven't we got enough questions? What do you think, Sirs, is the most important question of all these?
Questioner: What is it to pay attention?
Krishnamurti: Sirs, what do you think is the most important thing to discuss? Can we take this question of observation and thinking? Shall we? That is - what is it to observe, to listen, and who is it that listens, who is it that thinks? We shall relate it to daily living and not to some abstract concepts, because this country - like every other country in the world - functions at the conceptual level, except technologically. What do we mean by seeing? What do you think?
Questioner: Observing a little more attentively.
Krishnamurti: Why do you say "a little more"? Sir, when we use the words "I see a tree", "I see you", "I see or understand what you are saying" - what do we mean by the word "seeing"? Let us go slowly if you do not mind - step by step. When you see a tree, what do you mean by that?
Questioner: We only look superficially.
Krishnamurti: What do you mean by "superficially" looking at it? When you see a tree, what do you mean by "seeing"? Do please stick to that one word. Questioner: Catching a glimpse of it.
Krishnamurti: First of all, Sirs, have you looked at a tree? If you have looked, what do you see through your "seeing" eyes, the image of the tree or the tree?
Questioner: The image of the tree.
Krishnamurti: Do be careful, please, Sirs. Do you see the image in the sense of the mental construction or the concept of that tree, or do you actually see the tree?
Questioner: The physical existence of the tree.
Krishnamurti: Do you actually see that? Sirs, there is a tree... You must be able to see a tree or a leaf out of that window as I see it. When you see it what do you actually see? Do you see only the image of that tree or do you actually see the tree itself, without the image?
Questioner: We see the tree itself.
Questioner: We come to understand it.
Krishnamurti: Before we come to understand it, when I say "I see a tree" do I actually see the tree or the image I have about that tree? When you look at your wife or your husband, do you see her or him or the image you have about him or her? (Pause) When you look at your wife you see her through your memories, through your experience of her and her ways, and through those images you see her. And do we do the same with regard to the tree?
Questioner: When I look at a tree I just see a tree.
Krishnamurti: Ah, you are not a botanist, you are a lawyer and therefore you look at that tree actually as a tree, but if you were a botanist, if you were really interested in the tree, how it grows, what it is like, the aliveness, the quality of it, then you would have images, you would have pictures, you would compare it with other trees, and so on. You are looking at it aren't you, with a comparative look, with botanical knowledge, seeing whether you like it or not, whether it gives shade or not,`whether it is beautiful or not, and so on and so on. So, when you have all those images, associations, memories with regard to that tree, are you then actually looking at that tree? Are you directly looking at that tree or have you a screen between that tree and the visual perception of it?
Questioner: I tell myself what kind of a tree it is.
Krishnamurti: As a symbol. So you do not actually look at that tree. But this is simple, isn't it?
Questioner: A tree is a tree.
Krishnamurti: The "tree", Sirs, I see is rather difficult. Let us look at it differently. Do you look at your wife or your husband through the image you have built about her or him? Or your friend? You have created an impression, and the impression has left an image, an idea, a memory, isn't that so?
Questioner: My impressions of my wife have accumulated...
Krishnamurti: Yes, they have solidified, thickened, grown solid. So when you look at your wife or husband you are looking at him or her through the image you have built. Right. This is simple, isn't it? This is what we are all doing. Now, are we really looking at her or at the symbol, the memories? - is this the screen through which we look?
Questioner: How can we prevent that?
Krishnamurti: It is not a question of preventing. Let us see first what is actually taking place.
Questioner: When you look for the first time at a woman or a man you have no previous impression.
Krishnamurti: Naturally not.
Questioner: Are we not then looking at the woman or the man?
Krishnamurti: Of course you are. Why do you make it into such an abstraction? What actually takes place in daily life? You are married, or you live with a person, there is sex, pleasure, pain, insults, annoyance, boredom, indifference, nagging, bullying, domination, obeying and all the rest of it - all that has created an image in you about the other person and through that image you look at each other. Right? So are we looking at the woman or at the man, or are the images looking at each other?
Questioner: The image is the person.
Krishnamurti: No, no. There is a vast difference between them. Is there not a difference?
Questioner: We don't know any other way.
Krishnamurti: That is the only method of seeing you know.
Questioner: We alter our impression...
Krishnamurti: It is all part of that image, Sir - adding and subtracting. Look, Sir. Have you an image of the speaker? You have an image of the speaker and the image is based on his reputation, on what he has said previously, on what he condemns or what he approves, and so on. You have built an image. And through that image you listen or look. Right? That image either increases or decreases according to your pleasure or pain. And that image is obviously interpreting what the speaker is saying.
Questioner: We feel a strong impulse to come to your talks...
Krishnamurti: No, no, Sir. You may like my "blue eyes" or something! All that is included, Sir. The stimulation, the inspiration, the drive - you can add lots of things to that image!
Questioner: We don't know of any other way of looking.
Krishnamurti: We are going to find out, Sir. We not only look at people or trees in that way, but also we look at concepts, don't we - at the Communist ideology, the Socialist ideology, and so on. We look at everything through concepts. Right? Concepts, beliefs, ideas, knowledge or experience, or what appeals to us. Communism appeals to one person and does not appeal to the other; one person believes in God and another does not believe in God. These are all concepts, Utopias, and on that level we live. Now, are they of any value? Being on an abstract level, conceptual, have they any value? Have they any significance in daily life? Life means living: living means relationship; relationship means contact; contact means co-operation. Have concepts of any kind any significance, in that sense, in relationship? But the only relationship we have is conceptual. Right?
Questioner: Then we have to find a right relationship.
Krishnamurti: No, it is not a question of right relationship, Sir. We are just examining. Do please understand this, Sirs. Let us go into it slowly. Don't let us jump. We live in concepts, our life is conceptual. We know what we mean by "conceptual" so we do not have to analyse that word. And so there is an actual daily living and a conceptual living. Or, is all living conceptual? Do I live according to my concepts? One person believes, let us suppose, that one must be non-violent.
Questioner: I have not met anyone who actually believes in violence.
Krishnamurti: All right, Sir. My question is: Is all living conceptual?
Questioner: The building of a concept is due to habit and becomes a habit.
Krishnamurti: Perhaps we shall be able to come to that question later, if we can tackle this problem first. Our question is: Is all my living conceptual?
Questioner: Is there no such thing as spontaneous living?
Krishnamurti: There is conceptual living and spontaneous living, but do I know what spontaneous living is when I am so conditioned, when I have inherited so many traditions? - is there and spontaneity left? Whether you have one con- cept or a dozen, it is still a question of concepts. Please Sirs, do hold to this for a minute. Is all life, all living, all relationship merely conceptual?
Questioner: How can that be?
Krishnamurti: Have you not an idea, Sir, that you should live this way and not that way? Therefore when you say "I must do this and I must not do that" - it is conceptual. So, is all living conceptual or is there a difference between nonconceptual living and conceptual living - and hence a conflict between the two?
Questioner: I would say that we have a concept, but after experience the concept is modified.
Krishnamurti: Yes Sir, Concepts are modified, obviously - modified, changed a little; but is conceptual living different from daily living or...
Questioner: It is different.
Krishnamurti: Wait Sir, wait Sir! I want to analyse this a little more. Is conceptual living different from daily living, or is there a gap between the two? I say there is a gap. What is this gap? Why should there be a gap?
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: That's it. My concept is different from the actuality that is taking place now. Right? So there is an interval, a gap between what is, and what should be, or the concept. I am still sticking to the word "concept".
Questioner: When you talk about "the actuality", that, to me, is the concept.
Krishnamurti: No Sir. When you have toothache it is not a concept. When I have toothache it is not a concept. It is an actuality. When I am hungry, it is not a concept. When I have sexual desire, it is not a concept. But the next moment I say "No, I must not" or "I must", "It is evil", or "It is good". So there is a division between the actual, and what is, and the conceptual. So there is a duality. Right?
Questioner: If I am hungry it is not just a concept.
Krishnamurti: That is what we are saying, Sir. The primary urges, hunger, sex and so on, are actual, but we also have concepts about them. Concepts of class division, and so on. So, we are trying to find out why this gap exists and if it is possible to live without this gap, to live only with what is. Right? That is what we are trying to find out.
Questioner: Animals just eat when they are hungry.
Krishnamurti: But you and I are not animals. We may be at moments, but actually, now, we are not animals. So do not let us go back to animals, babies and previous generations; let us stick to ourselves. So there is the actual moment of living and the ideational, conceptual, non-factual living. Right Sirs? I believe in something, but that belief has nothing to do with the actuality, though the actuality may have produced the belief; the actual is not related to that belief. "I believe in universal brotherhood." God knows who can believe it, but I say, "I believe in universal brotherhood" - but actually I am competing with you. So the actuality of competition with you is entirely different from the conceptual.
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: We have made it fairly clear up to now. The actual is, "what is" - the factual. There is hunger in this country, poverty, overpopulation, corruption, inefficiency, brutality, and all the rest of it. That is the fact, but the ideation is that we should not be that. Right? In our daily life the "actual", the "what is", the "factual" is something entirely different from the real fact; it is the conceptual. Right?
Questioner: But what you call the actual is just another concept, surely.
Krishnamurti: No. I am hungry - that is not a concept, I am hungry. It is not born out of a memory of yesterday's hunger. If it is born out of yesterday's hunger it is not actual. Take sex - you do not mind my talking about sex do you? We all... but never mind. (Laughter) The sexual urge may or may not be there, but it is stimulated into being by the image which is fictional, not actual. So I am asking why do we have the conceptual at all?
Questioner: Perhaps it is...
Krishnamurti: No, no, Sir. Don t just answer me but find out if you have a concept at all. Why do I have a concept at all?
Questioner: There are some things like anger which are psychological...
Krishnamurti: All that is related, Sir. When I am angry, when there is irritation - it is a fact. It is there. But the moment I say, "It must not be there" it becomes conceptual. If you say "Well, the Indian starvation can only be solved by a particular political party," then it is conceptual - then you are not dealing with the fact. The Communist, the Socialist, the Congressman - whatever the parties are, they all think they will solve the problem of starvation if you follow their method - which is sheer nonsense, of course. Starvation is the fact and the conceptual is the idea, the method, the system. So I am asking myself, why do I have concepts at all? (Don't answer me, Sirs. Ask yourself that question.) Why do you believe in the Masters, the Gurus, in God, in the perfect state? Why?
Questioner: I wonder if...
Krishnamurti: Listen to what the first gentleman says. He says that by having a concept I reform myself. Everybody thinks that, not only you. By having an ideal, a goal, a principle, a hero, and so on, you think you will be helped to improve yourself. Now, what does this do actually, does it improve you or does it create conflict, conflict between what is and what should be?
Questioner: We are afraid, and therefore we retreat into these concepts.
Krishnamurti: All right. Now, can we live without concepts? Please let us go on, step by step. Can you live without a belief - follow this slowly - without a concept, without hope or despair?
Questioner: Surely we must have some beliefs...
Krishnamurti: Go into it, find out. Find out why you have concepts, first. Is it because you are afraid?
Questioner: One has to battle with others for the primary needs of life.
Krishnamurti: You say one has to battle.
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: You haven't answered the other gentleman's question. You have no respect for each other in this questioning! Let us find out what the other chap wants. You know there are two theories about this, one concerns "the survival of the fittest", which implies everlasting battle, wars, the superior race, the perfect concept, and so on. Then there is the other, that through violence there can be no change at all - in the most fundamental sense of that word. I do not know why you have any belief about this, one way or the other. The actual fact is that to survive at all in the world you have to battle, either very cunningly, cleverly, brutally or very subtly exploiting people in a nice gentle way. That is the fact. And why do we have a concept about it or about anything else?
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: (Wait, wait Sir. Go slowly. You are much too quick. Go slowly.) First there is, as one observes in one's daily life, the non-conceptual and the conceptual, and I ask myself - and I hope you are asking yourself too - why do I have concepts at all - belief that Communism or Capitalism is the most wonderful way of life? Why? Or the concept that there is God or there is no God. Why do we have concepts at all, including concepts of Rama and Sita?
Questioner: Without concepts we would be in a state of vacuum. Krishnamurti: Have you found that out? Is that a fact? Is that so? You are really not being very serious in going into this question. You have to be very precise and very clear, and not just jump from one concept to another. You are not answering the question. Why do you have, if you do have, any concept at all? You want to escape from the actual, from the "what is", don't you? (That is what that gentleman says, Sir... Let us understand that question first. "To escape from what is.") Why do you want to escape from what is? You would not want to escape from what is if it were pleasurable. You only want to escape from what is when it is painful.
Questioner: We do not exactly know "what is", and we are trying to understand.
Krishnamurti: Don t you know what is? And what do you mean by trying? Don't you have stomachache? Don't you get angry? Aren't you frightened, aren't you miserable, aren't you confused? Those are actual facts, Sir, there is nothing that requires you "to try" about them. Do consider all this, Sirs. If it were only a case of pleasure we would not have concepts at all. We would just say "Give me everything that will give me pleasure and don't bother about anything else." But if it is painful we want to escape from what is, into a concept. This is our daily life, Sirs. There is nothing to argue about. So your Gods, your beliefs, your ideals, principles are an escape from the daily misery, daily fears, daily anxieties. So, to understand something, cannot we ask: "Are concepts necessary?" You understand, Sir? I am afraid, and I see the absurdity of escaping from that into something which is a concept, a belief in the Masters, in God, in the Hereafter, into leading a perfect life - you know, all that stuff. Why can't I look at that fear? Why do I have to have concepts at all? And do not concepts prevent me from looking at that fear? Right Sirs? So concepts are a barrier; they act as a barrier which prevents you from looking.
Questioner: Please clarify what you have said.
Krishnamurti: Clarify what?
Questioner: Please make a clearer analysis. Krishnamurti: A clearer analysis? Perhaps you would do it yourself, Sir.
Questioner: You do it better than I.
Krishnamurti: What does it matter, who does it better or worse? What is important is whether we understand this thing clearly. It is fairly simple, Sirs. My life is very dull. I live in a shoddy little house with an ugly little wife and I am miserable, anxious, and I want satisfaction, I want happiness, I want a glimpse, a moment of inexpressible bliss, and so I escape to something which I can call X. That is the whole principle, isn't it? That does not need further explanation, does it? And I live there, in an ideological world, a world which I have conceived, or inherited, or been told about. And thinking and living in that abstraction gives me a great delight. It is an escape from the actual daily boredom of life. Right? Then I say to myself, "Why do I have to escape?" Why can't I live and understand this terrible boredom? Why do I waste my energies in escaping?..
You are all silent about this!
Questioner: You are conceiving a different form of existence from anything we know.
Krishnamurti: I am not conceiving anything. I say, look. And I am looking at this fact that I have escaped, that I am escaping, and I see how absurd it is. I have to deal with what is, and to deal with what is I need energy. Therefore I will not escape. Escape is a waste of energy. So, I will have nothing whatsoever to do with beliefs, Gods, concepts. I will have no concept at all. (Of course not, Sir, of course not.) If you burn your finger, and the pain creates a concept that you must never put your finger in the fire, then that concept has value, doesn't it? You have also had wars, thousands of wars. Why haven't you learnt from that not to have any more wars? (Come off it, Sir. You know very well what I mean.) We don't have to analyse all this every step as we go along. I burn my finger, and I say to myself I must be careful hereafter. Or, you tread on my toe, both metaphorically and physically, and I get angry physically, and I boil inwardly. I have learnt something from that, and I say, "I must not", or "I must". (It is the same thing. Avoid, build a resistance. I understand those things very clearly. They are necessary.)
Questioner: When someone makes me angry I remember it and when I meet him next time I am ready for him.
Krishnamurti: That's it, Sir! That's just it! Can I meet him without the concept next time? He might have changed, but if I meet him with my concept, that he has trodden on my toe, I have no relationship with him. Therefore, is it possible, though you have had some sort of experience, is it possible to be without the concept? So we must come back to the question - "Is it possible to live in this world without any concept?"
Questioner: I don't think so.
Krishnamurti: Do not let us say it is possible or it is not possible. Let us find out. You have separated yourselves from others, Sirs, as Hindus. This is a concept. (Yes, you are! My God, you are.) Would you marry your daughter to a Muslim? Let us be clear. I am taking an instance, Sir. You hurt me, and that hurt remains in my memory. I try to avoid you if I can. But unfortunately as you live in the same house or the same street I have to meet you every day. And I have an image, the crystallized image, thickened memory, which is meeting you every day. Hence there is a battle going on between us two. And so I say to myself, is it possible to live without that image, so that I really meet you? You might have changed or you might not have changed, but I will not have the image. Can I not find out how to live without the image, so that my mind is not cluttered up with images? Do you follow, Sirs. So that my mind is free, free to look, to enjoy, to live.
Questioner: That's an idea.
Krishnamurti: Oh no! To you it is an idea, but not to me. I say, "He has hurt me, but why should I carry on that burden?"
Questioner: I just take care next time. Krishnamurti: Yes, but I won't keep on repeating, "I must be careful", which only thickens the memory. I say that is no way to live, but I only say so for me, not for you. I don't want that image and to be carrying it with me all the time. That is not freedom. You may have changed, and also I like to be without an image. Not as an idea, but it is an actual fact that I do not want it. It is absurd for me to have an image about anybody. So let us come back to the other things.
Questioner: If I meet a good man, is it not a good thing to have a memory, an impression that he is a good man?
Krishnamurti: A bad impression or a good impression is still an impression. There is no "good image" and "bad image". (Inaudible remark) (For bad eyesight you must go to a better oculist.) This division between the conceptual and the actual breeds conflict. And a man who wants to investigate and go beyond the actual must have all his energy. That energy cannot be wasted through conflict. So I say to myself - and I am not telling you what to do - I say to myself, "It is absurd to live with concepts at all." I will deal with facts, with what. is, all the time, and will never be immersed in the concept. So then I am faced with the question, "How do I look at the fact, at what is?" I am not concerned with the conceptual at all. I am only concerned in the observation of actually what is. Right?
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: (Yes, but you take things as they come with a series of habits. Habits of which you may be conscious or unconscious... Sirs, we keep going away from the main issue.) So the question is, "Can I live with what is, without creating conflict?" Do you follow? I am angry. That is a fact. I am jealous. I like and dislike. That is a fact. Can I live with that, with what is, without making a problem, a conflict out of it?
Questioner: It is not a very happy thought for me! I am at a loss... (inaudible) Krishnamurti: The gentleman says he is at a loss because he is at a certain level and his wife, children and neighbour are at another level - higher or inferior. And so, he says, there is no co-operation. I carry on and they carry on. That is what we are all doing, Sir. So then, what?.. You see, we will not come to the central issue, which is, "Can I live, without conflict, with what is?" And not go to sleep, because conflict, apparently does keep one half-awake. I am asking, "Is it possible to live with what is, without conflict, and to go beyond it?" I am jealous. That is a fact. I see that in my life. I am jealous of my wife, jealous of the man who has more, more of worldly goods and of intellect - I am envious. I know how envy comes. It comes through comparison - but I do not have to analyse how envy arises. Now can I live with that, understand it, not have concepts about it? So that after looking at it, so that by understanding it, studying its structure and nature I have really understood it and so can go beyond it, so that envy never touches the mind again? You see, you are not interested in it. You really are not interested in it, are you?
Questioner: Yes we are. If we were not interested we would not be here, but we are not in contact with you.
Krishnamurti: Why? Why are you not in contact with the speaker and what he is saying? He has questioned very clearly, whether it is possible to live without concepts? And he took the example of envy. We know the nature and the structure of envy. Now can you live with it, and go beyond it, without conflict? So why are you not in contact with what the speaker is saying? If you are not in contact (not you, not you personally Sir), it may be because you like envy. (Inaudible) Look, Sirs - what happens? I am envious. That envy arises through measurement. I have little and you have more, or I am dull and you are very clever. I have a low position and you have a high position, you have a car and I have no car. So, through comparison, through measurement this envy arises. Right? Is not that clear? So, can I live without measurement? This is not a concept.
Questioner: It is a question of reconciling ourselves to the fact that there is inequality. Krishnamurti: You are not reconciling, Sir. I am asking you a question and you are talking about a reconciliation between black and white. Then you only produce grey. (Laughter) I am asking quite a different question. Do please listen, Sir. Can you live your daily life at the office, at home, without any measurement, without any comparison? No? Why do you have comparison? Because you have been conditioned from childhood to compare. Follow this, Sirs. It has become a habit, and you keep on repeating that habit. And though that habit creates misery, confusion and all the rest of it, you don't care. You carry on with the habit. Now, what will make you aware of the nature of this habit of comparison? Somebody forcing you to be aware of the habit? If the Government were to say, "You must not be envious", you would then find other ways of being envious, more subtle ones. Religions have tried this, but you have overcome all religions. So by forcing you to be non-envious you will revolt against it, and the revolt is violence. You understand, Sirs? If I force you into a corner and say, "You must do this", then you will kick me. But if you become aware of the habit you have cultivated for forty, twenty or ten years of comparing yourself with another, then what takes place? You see, you are not interested in this. I have lost you. Because you are not interested in breaking down your habits. The Communist has his habits, and the non-Communist has his habits, and those two are going to battle with each other. That is what is going on in the world. You have your habit in believing in something, and I have no habit in belief. So, what is our relationship? None at all!
So we come back to a very simple thing, and God knows why you sit here and listen. Is this becoming a habit?
Questioner: We hope so.
Krishnamurti: You hope it will become a habit!
Questioner: We hope to get illumination.
Krishnamurti: You won't. Sir, to get illumination you must have a clear mind, you must be able to look.
Questioner: You said... (inaudible) Krishnamurti: No Sir, I did not say that. I did not say that. I will not go back through all that again - it is useless. You see you will not face the actuality, the "what is"! You want to live in concepts, and I do not want to live in concepts. For Heaven's sake: love is not a concept. And because you have no love, you live in concepts. (And you all shake your heads and agree and go on with your habits.) So why do you listen, why do you come here, because when we talk about these real things you are off - away at some tangent! Unfortunately, or fortunately, the speaker has talked for forty-two years. And when it comes to the point - which is to live without envy - you are not there!
Questioner: The truth is we don't want to be disturbed.
Krishnamurti: Then don't be disturbed. Go away! Why do you come? You are not going to get any "poonyum" out of this, poonyum being merit. Here is a fundamental issue, and please do listen. It is a fundamental issue - to live without conflict, but not go to sleep. To live without the concept requires extraordinary intelligence and a great deal of energy. And I say that when you live in concepts you are wasting energy. And you say, "Oh, that's a very nice idea", and you still live there in concepts. You say, "I am a Communist, I believe in God, I don't believe in God and so on." And so I say to myself, "What is wrong?"
Questioner: There is an urge to know more.
Krishnamurti: Then pick up an encyclopedia or a dictionary and you will know more. To know more truly, means to know more about oneself. Otherwise there is only ignorance. You may be technologically brilliant, but if you do not know about yourself you are an ignorant person. Here I am, and I say, "I must know why I live in concepts. I want to analyse it, to understand it." Not that I must or must not live in concepts, but I want to know why. And when I look I know why. Because my life is so shoddy, mediocre, petty, and to escape from that I go off into concepts - and I have lovely concepts, immense concepts, concepts invented by Lenin, or Trotsky or Nehru or Gandhi, it does not matter who. I escape into those but I am still angry, I am still envious, I am still bored. So, why should I live in concepts at all? So I say,"I won't, because it is stupid." I will not do it! But you don't say that.
Questioner: Do we understand the meaning of the word?
Krishnamurti: I'm afraid we do not understand about anything. So we will have to re-start. Too bad!
Questioner: It is something which needs going into and we must think about it.
Krishnamurti: Really! If I hit you, you will know about that! If you are insulted, or have pain, you do not say you will think about it. This is all so obvious, but you quote a platitude and think you have understood it. So we lose contact with each other when we are not talking about concepts. When we talk about concepts, we are in contact. When we talked about God (if I was foolish enough to talk about God), then we were both in contact. But when you come down to an actual fact - of greed, envy - then we lose contact. Do you know, Sirs, what is happening in the world? The world being India also. How India is degenerating, don't you know it? Not only here, but in the world. And probably you cannot do anything about it. At least, there can be a few who will keep the light burning. That is all. But that is up to you, Sirs.
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