Jiddhu Krishnamurti (1895 - 1986)

MIND WITHOUT MEASURE - TALKS IN BOMBAY
4TH PUBLIC TALK - 30TH JANUARY, 1983
'WHAT IS A RELIGIOUS MIND?'

Some of you perhaps have heard of genetic engineering. The genetic experts say that they assume a factor, a creative element, handed out from the father to the offspring, certain tendencies, qualities. `They are saying, since man has not changed for thousands of years, they assume that he can be changed through genetic interference. It is a very complex question which we are not going to discuss. But we must understand what is going on, that as human beings have not deeply changed their characteristics, their way of life, their violence, they are hoping through certain chemical process and so on to change the genes, the factors that transmit certain characteristics from the father to the son. Also we should consider what is happening in the computer world. We cannot neglect all this: the genetic engineering and what is happening in the computer world. They are trying to create a mechanical intelligence, ultimate intelligence through the computer which will then think much more rapidly, more accurately, and inform the robots what they should do. This is happening already and they are trying to bring about a machine, a computer, which has ultimate intelligence. So, there is on one side genetic engineering, on the other the computer acting as human beings, inventing generation after generation of computer, improving, and so on. I won't go into all that. So what is going to happen to the human mind? What is going to happen to us when the computer can do almost everything that we do? It can meditate, it can invent gods, much better gods than yours, it can inform, educate your children far better than the present teacher, and it will create a great deal of leisure for man. Are you understanding the nature of all this, the significance of all this? That is, what is going to happen to our minds? When the computer and genetic engineering are rapidly advancing, what is going to happen to us? We would have more leisure, the computer plus the robot will do a great many things that we are doing now in our factories, in our offices, and so on. Then man will have more leisure. How will he use that leisure? Please go into this with me for a while. If the computer can out-think you, remember far more than you do, calculate with such astonishing speed and give you leisure, either you pursue the path of pleasure which is entertainment - cinemas, religious entertainments, you know all the industry of entertainment, including the gurus - or psychological search, seeking out inwardly and finding out for oneself a tremendous area that is beyond all thought. These are the only two possibilities left for us - entertainment or delving into the whole structure of the psyche and acting. Now we are asking what is our human mind, our brain. We are going to find out for ourselves.

We first begin by asking what is the significance of death. It is the question of all humanity whether we are very young or very old. What is the meaning, the significance, of the extraordinary thing called death? Yesterday evening, we talked about several things including what is love, compassion; what is the relationship of life which is not only the whole human existence, what is its relationship to love, to death and to the whole search of man for thousands of years to find something that is beyond all thought. We have to understand the meaning of death because we are all going to die. That is absolute certainty. We are so afraid of it or we rationalize it. You say `yes', I accept it, I accept death as I accept pain, as I accept sorrow, as I accept loneliness; I also accept death, which is to submit, to suffer death, to allow the whole of existence of a human being to come to an end, either through disease, through old age or through some incident. We never find out while we are living what it means to die, to understand the depth of it. You are looking at it as an incident of life, as a fact of life, as violence is a fact of life, as hatred is a fact of life. If we are at all reasonable, sane, we must look at this question of death in similar manner, not accept it, not just say it is inevitable or try to find out what lies beyond death, but to observe the nature of dying.

What does death mean to most of us? Surely it means the ending, both organically and biologically, of all the things that we have held here, of all the wounds, pains, sacrifice, resistance, loneliness, despair - all that coming to an end, which means, either there is a continuity of the self, the `me', or the ending of the `me'. We said death is an ending. You can believe in reincarnation, as most of you perhaps do. If you do, you have to ask the question, what is it that continues? Is there a continuity or is there constant change - breaking, ending, beginning? If you believe - as most people perhaps in India believe - that you are going to be reborn, then what is it that is going to be reborn? Surely not the physical body, but if you believe in that, it is a continuity of what you are now, continuity of your beliefs, your activities, your greed, and so on, that is the bundle which is the consciousness, which is the self. That self, which is essentially consciousness, is put together by thought, your greed, your envy; your religious beliefs, superstitions, your anger, and so on; all those are the activities of thought. You are the result of a continuous movement of thought. If you believe in reincarnation and all that, you must find out if it is an illusion or a reality. If you are your name, your form, your ideas, your conclusions, your experiences, are they the factors of continuity as the `me' in the next life? What is that `me'?

Each one of us, we think, is a separate entity; we think we are so-called individuals. What is that individuality - the name, the form, what you remember, your attitudes, your loneliness, your pain, your anxiety, your chaos, your sorrow and uncertainty? You may live in a nice house or in a small room or a nice flat but you are all that. You are the bank account. When you are attached to a bank account, you are the bank account; when you are attached to a house, you are the house; when you are attached to your body, you are that. You may have lovely furniture, and it may be marvellous furniture, and if you are attached to that, you are that furniture. So you are all that. When you are attached to a chair, to a person, to an idea, to an ideal, to a personal experience, what are the implications of that attachment? Why are you attached, because death says you cannot be attached, that is the end of it. You may believe in the future, but death says you have ended, your attachment is over, your bank account is over, your guru and all your following is over. So what is it that continues, that is reborn - memories, ideas? Which is what? - something dead, or is there no continuity at all? Think, search out, please. Continuity means that which is going on modifying itself. You are becoming something, and achieving it and wanting more. Continuity implies security, certainty. Are you certain about anything? Is there security in your ideas? We want continuity. We hope to have continuity because, in continuity we thing there is security. One has been married for ten years, fifteen years or fifty years, there is certain continuity, but in that continuity there is conflict, misery, unhappiness, all the rest of that. So there is no continuity at all. There is constant change if you are aware of it. Either that can be superficial or a total mutation, change. That which has existed completely undergoes a change. One must find out for oneself what is the truth of this matter. One cannot be convinced by argument, by so-called evidence, and so on. One cannot be convinced of anything. One has to search out, seek and find what is true and what is illusion. We have lived with this illusion that we are separate entities, whereas if you examine very closely, your consciousness, which is you is shared by all humanity. They suffer as you suffer, they are as uncertain as you are; they are lonely, miserable, confused, anxious, as you are. So your consciousness is not yours. It is the consciousness of all humanity. You are the entire humanity. It is not mere logical conclusion or observation. That is a fact. We have been trained, educated, both religiously and educationally, that we are separate individuals. We are frightened that individuality should come to an end. With such a thought, such concept as an individual, when one approached the question of death, there is immense fear of ending. But if one sees the reality, the truth that you are the rest of mankind, then what is death?

Have you ever enquired what is the nature of ending, not ending to begin something, but ending? That is, you are attached, that is a common fact; attached to your children, attached to your husband, wife, attached to something or other. Death comes along and wipes away that attachment. You cannot carry your money to heaven. You may like to have it till the last moment, but you cannot take it with you, and death says no. So can we, while living understand the nature of attachment with all its fear, jealousy, anxiety, possessive feeling; while living, be free of attachment? While you are alive, to end something voluntarily, easily without any pressure, without any reward or punishment, to end, in that there is great beauty. Then one understands the nature of freedom. In the ending, there is a beginning, something new. There is an ending, and when there is an ending, there is that feeling of total freedom from all the burden that humanity has carried for centuries. You listen to all this, smile, nod your head and agree, but you will go on being attached. That is the easiest way, the most comforting and the most painful, but you will go on. And you call that practical. Whereas, if you understand the nature of ending, you end your ambition in a very, very competitive world, understand the ending of your arrogance, your pride, your status. When this so-called organism ends, the content of consciousness of humanity goes on unless you bring about a radical change in that consciousness, a mutation, so that you are no longer in that stream of selfishness; you are no longer caught, engaged, put in the prison of attachment, uncertainty, and so on. There is a totally different way of living.

Also we should talk about religion. It is a very complex question. Together we are going to find out a mind that is religious, not the mind that does puja, all the ceremonies, beliefs, and all that. That is not religion. Those are all the inventions of thought. God is your invention because you find life so dull, boring. It is such a pain. So you invent god who is all-perfect, all-loving; you worship that, and you worship that which you have put together by thought. So thought is deceiving you. But you will go on because you love to live in illusion. We must find out what is a religious mind, because a religious mind brings about a new world, a new civilization, a new culture, a new outburst of energy. One must find out for oneself what is a religious mind, not be told, not be directed, not be explained to. So what is a religious mind? You can only find out if you deny totally all the present religious structure, religious beliefs and ideas, because it is only a free mind that can find out what is the quality of the religious mind.

First of all, one can see very clearly that freedom is essential, not freedom from something. A prisoner wants freedom, which means first he is caught in a prison, then he wants freedom to leave that prison. That is only a reaction. That reaction is not freedom. Freedom implies the total ending of all illusions, of all beliefs, of all your accumulated wants, desires. A religious mind is a sane, healthy, factual mind; it faces facts, not ideas. The speaker can go on explaining what is a religious mind. Perhaps you will accept the definitions or deny the definitions; and merely arguing, analysing, questioning, may help, but it may not necessarily bring about a religious mind. So one has to have a great humility, a sense of not knowing. Also a religious mind acts, because it is compassionate. That action is born of intelligence. Intelligence, love, compassion, all go together. That is meditation. Don't suddenly sit up properly. That has no meaning. You may sit cross-legged, breathe properly, practise various systems; that is not meditation.

We are going to enquire, search out for ourselves, what is meditation. The word `meditation means, according to a good dictionary, to ponder over, to think over, to look closely, to come in touch with, not something sublime invented by thought, but come close and touch your daily life. That is the ordinary dictionary meaning of that word `meditation. Also meditation implies measurement. That is the meaning of that word. So we begin by asking, why do we measure? What do we mean by measurement? Why is there in our mind and heart this constant measurement? Measurement means comparison. I compare myself with you, wanting to be like you, wanting to be like your guru, like your highest example, whatever it is. Why do we compare at all in life? We say we compare in order to make progress. We are always comparing. You are beautiful, I am not. I want to be as beautiful, as powerful as you are. We want to be as enlightened as you are. There is always this competition of comparison between us. We are never free of that movement, but if we are free, then what are we? Do you understand my question? Is it possible to be free of comparison, is it possible to end comparison? If you don`t compare, then you throw away a great burden that has no reality. Because, then you are what you are. From there you can begin, but if you are always comparing, becoming somebody else, then you are fundamentally unhappy anxious, frightened, and all the rest of it. So please ask the question of yourself, whether you can live without comparison, without any form of measurement which is quite difficult, because we are trained, educated, convinced, that we are this but we will become that. The becoming is a form of measurement. To live without a single movement of measurement is part of meditation.

Most people who meditate follow various systems. Each one has his own guru and he has laid down certain systems of meditation, and you practise, repeat certain words over and over again and you call that meditation. When you repeat over and over again, what is happening to your brain? You become more and more dull. You become a machine and you think that is meditation. You will go on doing it in spite of what the speaker is saying. In enquiring what is meditation, there can be no system, no effort. Effort means conflict. Can you be free of systems, practice, realizing the fact that your brain, your senses, become dull? Can you be free of systems? Can the mind, the brain, realize what it means to follow somebody, to obey what somebody else tells you to do because he calls himself a guru? All those things have destroyed the beauty of a religious mind. Meditation is none of these things, yoga included. Then what is meditation? You want experience. You are craving for some strange experience, so-called spiritual experience. You have enough of experiences in this world, of pain, anxiety, sorrow, and you say we want something more, greater experience. Experience has nothing whatsoever to do with meditation. To experience, there must be an experiencer, and if there is an experiencer, that experiencer is the continuity of past memories which is the self. Meditation is the understanding of the whole structure of the `me', the self, the ego, and whether it is possible to be totally free of the self, not seek some super-self. The super-self is still the self. So meditation is something which is not a cultivated, determined, activity. There must be freedom, and where there is freedom, there is space. Have we space apart from the physical world? Have we, living in Bombay, space? Hardly. We live in a little flat or a little room, and our minds gradually accept that little space. We are talking of space which has no walls. You know, when you look at the sea, when the smog has gone and you see the far horizon, the vast disc, and when you look up at the stars and see their extraordinary brightness and the vast space and the space that you have in your mind, how small it is, how narrow it is; that space in your heart and mind is so controlled, shaped, put together. There is hardly any space in you. To understand that which is sacred, there must be vast space in you, not out there in the sea. Space is not separation. Space is not division. When you divide, there is space between you and your wife, between you as India and another country, but that is not space. The space inwardly can only exist when there is no conflict whatsoever. Then when there is that vast limitless space of the mind, then only in that space there is energy, not the energy and friction of thought, because that energy is born out of freedom. When there is that space and silence and that immeasurable energy, then there is that which is utterly nameless, measureless, timeless; then there is that which is sacred. But to find that, one must have great love, great compassion, which must begin at home. You must love your wife, your children, your husband. Love cannot exist with attachment. If it is attachment, then you have all the problems of life. So, sirs and ladies, it is your life. Either you bring about a great radical, psychological revolution in yourself or the experts of the genetic world are going to make you do something. Then you will become merely machines. Then life will have very little meaning. But there is great significance, great meaning, if you are aware what love is, compassion and intelligence. Then out of that comes great silence and vast space. All that cannot exist if there is any shadow of selfishness. And this is meditation, and not the repetition of words, not the discipline of will, but the discipline of order which comes when there is no conflict.